I just took Bob Vogel's 2 day handgun class at Chabot Gun Club in Castro Valley, CA. The class was arranged through Grey Group Training. Bob Vogel is a multiple time world champion in IDPA and USPSA, and was a LEO for years.
The class had a mix of competitors and people who train for defensive handgun use who wanted to get better at shooting. Vogel's opinion on competition shooting as it relates to tactical shooting is that competition shooting is a good way to test your skills in a stressful situation, and that fast accurate shooting goes a long way towards winning fights.
At the beginning of the class, while we were waiting for the range to allow live fire in the morning, he gave a lecture on fundamentals of shooting. A big focus area he had was grip and stance, which don't matter much for slow fire marksmanship, but which are critical for being able to shoot fast and accurately. His grip technique especially is fairly unique. It involves pinching at the top of the frontstrap and backstrap with the strong hand, rather than gripping evenly all around, and the support hand is a little farther forward than most people have it, with the support hand's index knuckle almost even with the front of the trigger guard. And most importantly, both hands apply torque inwards, i.e. your right hand applies rotational force counter clockwise, and your left hand applies force clockwise. This causes the elbows to rotate outward and applies a static force high and inward on the gun. One of his Panteao Productions videos, "Building World Class Pistol Skills" also shows this grip technique. When he demoed various drills, the gun barely moved at all when he was firing very fast.
He checked each individual's grip and stance and offered feedback and what they were doing differently from him.
He said he dry fires at a ratio of 10 to 1 dry fire to live fire, and that dry fire is very important. For speed shooting, he recommends pressing the trigger and hearing the click, and then continuing to press the trigger more times even though the gun doesn't reset. He gave some more tips on dry fire training. He talked a lot about seeing the sights while shooting and tracking them during transitions.
Aside from grip and stance, some techniques that were covered include the draw, trigger control, strong and weak hand shooting, tracking the sights and shot calling, reloads of various kinds, and seeing what you need to see to get the hit at various distances.
The live fire portion of the class was a lot of different shooting drills. For most of the drills, he had everyone on the line do the drill a few times, then came by each person and had them do it individually on the timer and gave individual feedback on the person's performance and any issues he saw. This was nice compared to some other classes where the instructors run the whole line every time and don't give as much individual attention. If we did some drills twice on the timer, this allowed us to try to incorporate the feedback and see if there was any improvement. There were also some longer, more complicated drills that were like small USPSA stages that could only be run one at a time. There was down time for the other people who weren't shooting, but they could observe and watch Vogel feedback and see if some of that feedback applied to themselves. Drills included strong and weak hand only shooting, reloads (slide lock, speed, tactical, or 'with retention'), shooting on the move in various directions, shooting from cover, Bill drills at various ranges, transition drills between different targets at various ranges, El Presidente, and some drills that involved random dice rolls which required quick thinking to determine which targets to shoot in what order.
Vogel said that a lot of practical shooting is the ability to think fast under time pressure and that doing drills that force you to do that helps to build that skill.
He talked about some of the mental issues in competitive shooting. He recommends two books, Lanny Bassham's "With Winning in Mind" and Saul Kirsch's "Thinking Practical Shooting".
I think that competitive or tactical shooters can both get a lot out of this class.
Another AAR of this class is at
http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?5859-Robert-Vogel-2-Day-Pistol-Class-AAR-01-Nov-2012
Thursday, November 1, 2012
Southnarc ECQC AAR
I took Southnarc's Extreme Close Quarters Combat class in Sacramento CA in October 2012, and this is a belated AAR. I normally don't go to Sacramento for training since there is a lot of quality instruction already in the Bay Area, but Southnarc does not come to the Bay Area since there isn't a host here who's set up for him. It was well worth the trip, and I would have to say it was probably the best shooting related class I've ever taken.
Craig Douglas, a.k.a. Southnarc, was a SWAT team leader and did undercover narcotics work as a LEO. ECQC focuses on defending yourself in a weapons based environment where the attacker is within arm's length.
Self defense situations most commonly start within arm's length. Having the fastest draw or Bill Drill or El Presidente time in the world doesn't matter much when the attacker can grab your gun arm and get in a tangle with you and take the gun away. Also keep in mind that one or two handgun shots may not be enough to stop an attack. It's important to be able to deal with a determined attacker who continues to press forward and crash into you even after taking some hits.
This situation is underexplored in the civilian shooting training world. Most shooting courses have most of the training take place at 5 yards or beyond. To the extent that they do cover close quarters work, it typically involves shooting from the retention position on a paper target, and practicing some disarms and retention techniques with a non resisting partner. ECQC is very different in that a lot of the curriculum involves going against a resisting partner who is trying to accomplish a goal of his own. When you are wrestling with someone over a gun, you need to know wrestling techniques and training methods; the gun isn't automatically going to solve the problem for you. This training with resistance is _crucial_ for getting the right feeling when it comes to wrestling with someone over a gun.
To understand why, I refer you to the video "Matt Thornton on Aliveness in martial arts".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imjmLWj5WCU&feature=related
ECQC is the only open enrollment class for civilians that I'm aware of that combines shooting and combatives with resistance. This is for several reasons.
- Many shooting instructors don't have a deep combatives background
- Many instructors may be concerned about liability due to injuries
- Many shooting students are not willing to get dirty and get sweaty wrestling around and getting beaten up and shot with Simunition rounds.
Friday night started at a martial arts gym in Rocklin with a 4 hour block on Managing Unknown Contacts. This went quickly but was some of the most valuable part of the curriculum. Southnarc covered a little bit about how criminals think and how they choose their victims, and how best to handle encounters with suspicious people, without necessarily overreacting or being rude unless they cross a certain threshold. He described common pre-assault cues that are a hint that someone may be about to attack. He taught a basic defensive posture, 'The Fence', and a defensive move to protect your head when someone punches you. Each of these were followed by unscripted improvised role playing training with a partner, where the technique was put into context. We finished the night with some drills to teach fundamental wrestling concepts, including the mountain goat drill (see the pictures in the Calguns AAR linked at the end) and a pummeling drill.
See
http://www.safeism.com/pdfs/SNContacts.pdf for a taste of what MUC is about. Reading the PDF and actually practicing it in person is a very different experience. Knowing it in your head and actually doing it are very different.
Training days 2 and 3 were on the range at Sacramento Valley Shooting Center.
Both days had live fire shooting in the morning, then being thoroughly scrubbed for live weapons and training force on force with Sims in the afternoon. One major takeaway from the live fire drills is that most people were doing 'retention shooting' from the #2 position(#2 count in the standard 4 count draw stroke) in a very lazy way. At close quarters, a few inches can make a big difference in whether or not the opponent can get their hands on your gun. So it's important to pull the hand as far back and as high as possible, to the point where it's uncomfortable to your shoulder. This also makes it more consistent, since it's at the limit of your range of motion. The consistency is important when shooting in a tangle since you may be moving around in circles while wrestling the opponent and shooting and it's important to know where your rounds are going to go.
The force on force training had a lot of basis in wrestling and Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. There wasn't much material on striking due to time and safety limitations. Some key concepts are
- Don't try to access your weapon in-fight until you have a dominant position where the opponent can't grab the weapon. Pulling your gun out when the opponent can grab it is generally causing more problems than it solves. Generally you want to get to your opponent's back or side.
- It's not over until it's over. Getting a few shots on the opponent did not end the scenario, so we had to develop the mentality to continue fighting until Southnarc called the scenario over.
- Controlling the arms is more important than controlling the head, since the arms can access weapons. This can be tricky for people with prior experience with grappling in a non weapons based context since they may be more used to going for head control.
- On the ground, it's preferable to disengage rather than to dominate position, since a second or third opponent could attack you while you're winning the fight on the ground. Of course, if the opponent that's with you on the ground has a gun, maybe disengaging is a bad idea until they have been disarmed.
- Some techniques that were used standing up include underhook, whizzer, arm drag, and on the ground included bridging and shrimping to escape a pin, and some open guard work against a standing or kneeling opponent.
- Having more weapons on you, such as a gun and a knife, can be very useful, but it's also more things that the opponent can take away from you and use on you.
- Knives are actually more scary than guns at contact distance because they're much harder to disarm. When you go to disarm a gun, you can grab the gun itself, but grabbing the blade on a knife is very difficult in a live situation.
Southnarc is very smart about adult education and how to get someone to learn something. Each technique was drilled first with no resistance, to learn the basic mechanics of the move.
Then it was drilled with a resisting partner who was attempting to accomplish his own goal. But the drill was isolated so that each person could only do a very limited set of moves.
Then it was drilled in a more open ended context where many moves were available.
Finally everything was put together in very open ended scenarios where almost any move was available.
The students who came to the class were all very cool about training at an appropriate level of resistance, and no one got hurt. The type of person who shows up to this kind of class can keep control of their ego and not care too much if they win or lose. Big ego types typically don't show up. Also, not everyone that showed up was young / big / strong / experienced in martial arts. Far from it. Many of the guys were older or smaller or less fit or had no experience and may have had a hard time 'winning' the scenarios but I saw them all learn a lot and improve greatly compared to the start of the class. They came away with a realistic understanding of what they can or can't do. The videos you see on YouTube of ECQC are of the scenarios which are the culmination of the day's training. Most of the training is at a much lower intensity. So if you are out of shape, or old, or small or weak, I wouldn't worry about it. Just go to the class and you will get a lot out of it. Winning or losing doesn't matter, it only matters if you got better.
Highest recommendations for this class. It is as far as I know the only class of its kind in the whole country open to civilians. I won't name them, but I have taken 3 other shooting classes that were meant to be for close quarters, and ECQC is head and shoulders above them. This class is more applicable to civilian self defense than any other shooting class I can think of.
There is another AAR with pictures at
http://calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=630853
Southnarc's website is http://shivworks.com and a class schedule can be found there.
Craig Douglas, a.k.a. Southnarc, was a SWAT team leader and did undercover narcotics work as a LEO. ECQC focuses on defending yourself in a weapons based environment where the attacker is within arm's length.
Self defense situations most commonly start within arm's length. Having the fastest draw or Bill Drill or El Presidente time in the world doesn't matter much when the attacker can grab your gun arm and get in a tangle with you and take the gun away. Also keep in mind that one or two handgun shots may not be enough to stop an attack. It's important to be able to deal with a determined attacker who continues to press forward and crash into you even after taking some hits.
This situation is underexplored in the civilian shooting training world. Most shooting courses have most of the training take place at 5 yards or beyond. To the extent that they do cover close quarters work, it typically involves shooting from the retention position on a paper target, and practicing some disarms and retention techniques with a non resisting partner. ECQC is very different in that a lot of the curriculum involves going against a resisting partner who is trying to accomplish a goal of his own. When you are wrestling with someone over a gun, you need to know wrestling techniques and training methods; the gun isn't automatically going to solve the problem for you. This training with resistance is _crucial_ for getting the right feeling when it comes to wrestling with someone over a gun.
To understand why, I refer you to the video "Matt Thornton on Aliveness in martial arts".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imjmLWj5WCU&feature=related
ECQC is the only open enrollment class for civilians that I'm aware of that combines shooting and combatives with resistance. This is for several reasons.
- Many shooting instructors don't have a deep combatives background
- Many instructors may be concerned about liability due to injuries
- Many shooting students are not willing to get dirty and get sweaty wrestling around and getting beaten up and shot with Simunition rounds.
Friday night started at a martial arts gym in Rocklin with a 4 hour block on Managing Unknown Contacts. This went quickly but was some of the most valuable part of the curriculum. Southnarc covered a little bit about how criminals think and how they choose their victims, and how best to handle encounters with suspicious people, without necessarily overreacting or being rude unless they cross a certain threshold. He described common pre-assault cues that are a hint that someone may be about to attack. He taught a basic defensive posture, 'The Fence', and a defensive move to protect your head when someone punches you. Each of these were followed by unscripted improvised role playing training with a partner, where the technique was put into context. We finished the night with some drills to teach fundamental wrestling concepts, including the mountain goat drill (see the pictures in the Calguns AAR linked at the end) and a pummeling drill.
See
http://www.safeism.com/pdfs/SNContacts.pdf for a taste of what MUC is about. Reading the PDF and actually practicing it in person is a very different experience. Knowing it in your head and actually doing it are very different.
Training days 2 and 3 were on the range at Sacramento Valley Shooting Center.
Both days had live fire shooting in the morning, then being thoroughly scrubbed for live weapons and training force on force with Sims in the afternoon. One major takeaway from the live fire drills is that most people were doing 'retention shooting' from the #2 position(#2 count in the standard 4 count draw stroke) in a very lazy way. At close quarters, a few inches can make a big difference in whether or not the opponent can get their hands on your gun. So it's important to pull the hand as far back and as high as possible, to the point where it's uncomfortable to your shoulder. This also makes it more consistent, since it's at the limit of your range of motion. The consistency is important when shooting in a tangle since you may be moving around in circles while wrestling the opponent and shooting and it's important to know where your rounds are going to go.
The force on force training had a lot of basis in wrestling and Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. There wasn't much material on striking due to time and safety limitations. Some key concepts are
- Don't try to access your weapon in-fight until you have a dominant position where the opponent can't grab the weapon. Pulling your gun out when the opponent can grab it is generally causing more problems than it solves. Generally you want to get to your opponent's back or side.
- It's not over until it's over. Getting a few shots on the opponent did not end the scenario, so we had to develop the mentality to continue fighting until Southnarc called the scenario over.
- Controlling the arms is more important than controlling the head, since the arms can access weapons. This can be tricky for people with prior experience with grappling in a non weapons based context since they may be more used to going for head control.
- On the ground, it's preferable to disengage rather than to dominate position, since a second or third opponent could attack you while you're winning the fight on the ground. Of course, if the opponent that's with you on the ground has a gun, maybe disengaging is a bad idea until they have been disarmed.
- Some techniques that were used standing up include underhook, whizzer, arm drag, and on the ground included bridging and shrimping to escape a pin, and some open guard work against a standing or kneeling opponent.
- Having more weapons on you, such as a gun and a knife, can be very useful, but it's also more things that the opponent can take away from you and use on you.
- Knives are actually more scary than guns at contact distance because they're much harder to disarm. When you go to disarm a gun, you can grab the gun itself, but grabbing the blade on a knife is very difficult in a live situation.
Southnarc is very smart about adult education and how to get someone to learn something. Each technique was drilled first with no resistance, to learn the basic mechanics of the move.
Then it was drilled with a resisting partner who was attempting to accomplish his own goal. But the drill was isolated so that each person could only do a very limited set of moves.
Then it was drilled in a more open ended context where many moves were available.
Finally everything was put together in very open ended scenarios where almost any move was available.
The students who came to the class were all very cool about training at an appropriate level of resistance, and no one got hurt. The type of person who shows up to this kind of class can keep control of their ego and not care too much if they win or lose. Big ego types typically don't show up. Also, not everyone that showed up was young / big / strong / experienced in martial arts. Far from it. Many of the guys were older or smaller or less fit or had no experience and may have had a hard time 'winning' the scenarios but I saw them all learn a lot and improve greatly compared to the start of the class. They came away with a realistic understanding of what they can or can't do. The videos you see on YouTube of ECQC are of the scenarios which are the culmination of the day's training. Most of the training is at a much lower intensity. So if you are out of shape, or old, or small or weak, I wouldn't worry about it. Just go to the class and you will get a lot out of it. Winning or losing doesn't matter, it only matters if you got better.
Highest recommendations for this class. It is as far as I know the only class of its kind in the whole country open to civilians. I won't name them, but I have taken 3 other shooting classes that were meant to be for close quarters, and ECQC is head and shoulders above them. This class is more applicable to civilian self defense than any other shooting class I can think of.
There is another AAR with pictures at
http://calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=630853
Southnarc's website is http://shivworks.com and a class schedule can be found there.
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